PAT'S DAD: Calling in to help read the credits. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Whats that called?]. You can't see that on the radio but, hey, it's a fact of life. PAT: But a year later, the social worker called again. SECTION I - Story 1 (Lamark, Krammerer & the Midwife Toads) 1. JAD: Well, its offensive. We'll just get one more.". Just to be sure, we asked Frances Champagne what she thinks of this data. LATIF: Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? Well, its offensive. All jokes aside. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: She's offering $200. I know! DESTINY HARRIS: Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. SAM KEAN: You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? They have six, seven, eight, ten, fourteen.]. They willed the neck to get longer, the muscles to get bigger. And you have to bear in mind that at this point, it only had one hand left. And so, you could only see one nuptial pad, and it all comes down to thisand all of that was just about to fall apart. He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. PEJK MALINOVSKI: And we have a lot more grain here. CARL ZIMMER: You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. At the Vivarium, as the name suggests, they have live animals. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". Radiolab is an outstanding radio show broadcast out of New York City on WNYC. a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. PAT: It would be wrong to assume the women Barbara talks about on TV [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: These women don't just have one and two babies. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. JAD: Most toads, he says, love to stay in the water. PAT: Yeah. His example with humans was a blacksmith. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. A lot of times that's not the case. Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. Since birth. This lady right here is still taking drugs and she could be pregnant again next month.]. [laughs[ Exactly. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. So. Brain disease. Baby, be careful. How old are your boys right now? CARL ZIMMER: Well, it was a zoo where there was all sorts of experiments going on. So some scientists began to ask Kammerer if they could look at his toads. And all over the political spectrum, from Hollywood lefties to social conservatives. JAD: Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. He was born in 1880 in Vienna, Jewish family. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. DESTINY HARRIS: Kick it to him. She's 20 months old. We talked to her for a little while and At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. She should be with me. Radiolab branded apparel and accessories are available at the Official Radiolab Online Store, aka the Swag Lab. JAD: Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. He is passionate about scholarly writing, World History, and Political sciences. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: How bout this one?]. As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. JAD: Who now works at Columbia University. That was nice. Turning down a job that they'd offered him. It's only the mechanisms are not so clear. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? Not only that. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. The neural chemical signal that gets activated during licking, is serotonin. PAT: And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. I'm in public health. DESTINY HARRIS: You missed it. The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. Were just talking about toad, I thought. But in the middle of a conversation about how to fight the virus, we find a place impervious to the stalled plans and frenetic demands of the outside world. I'm so proud and I have four years clean. So, the thought is, when those little boys in verkalix were really, really hungry, their hunger started a chemical process that reached all the way down to the DNA inside the boy's sperm. I'm almost done. Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. MICHAEL MEANEY: What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. That was it. And when she had a baby. MICHAEL MEANEY: So the great rat nightmare comes true where the females become their mothers. PAT: Nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant. All these chemicals racing by crashing into it, sticking, and one of the bits that gets covered up is that little bit that makes the proteins that create a maternal instinct. JAD: I mean, it's pretty common but like, here's a for instance, my dad from my entire life had this thing where if someone was whistling, he would like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. Listen Feb 10, 2023 Bliss When did you last shout from happiness? It goes back to the 1800s. Life is hard.". So moms licking activates serotonin, and it's released onto brain cells in the hippocampus. That's the stuff that makes you you. And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. I want to start with a parental day dream for a second. One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. ], Like you said, when you were in your addiction like she is], I didn't say I'm God. You're eight, sorry. PAT: In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. That's how we ended up with four of them. I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. JAD: When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. He actually coined the word biology, too. If you were a boy in verkalix between the ages of 9 and 12 years old, that's the window, 9 to 12, you're a boy, and then we have one of those terribly rough winters, and you're eating much less than normal. And so, her name is Kalia. Yeah, thats it. And Barbara is not offering that. He'd fall asleep and just wake up screaming. PAT: As Barbara made the rounds on the daytime talk shows, the reaction was split right down the middle. Yes. ROBERT: Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. I know! Like, mine are bigger, you know." And one of them is called the thyroid system. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. RADIOLAB Podcast "Inheritance" Homework Assignment Name: Rohan Desai PSUID: 9 6241 8529 Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. And then they're going to basically revel at that particular spot and turn on that gene. In this episode, originally aired in 2012,we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations.Support Radiolab by becoming a member ofThe Labtoday. PAT: Because when a woman uses heroin while she's pregnant, the fetus gets hooked on it too. And um Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. I mean like, with the licking, is it a teaching thing where, you know, the babies become good mothers because FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. At once and we're watching 40 litters at a time. Radiolab is on YouTube! What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA And these things are called, apparently, methyl groups. In this magazine article, Barbara even said, quote, "We don't allow dogs to breed. Barbara Harris. We travel to Ukraine to follow a shipment of abortion pills, and discover a complicated conversation about pregnancy and choice in wartime. This is spooky because it's like JAD: It means what if grandpa has a bad day? You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. PAT: All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". JAD: And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. How old are your boys right now? PAT: But were getting ahead of ourselves here. JAD: And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. Maybe like those methyl things we were telling you about with the rats. If you start smoking when you're 10, 11 something like that, you end up having children with more problems. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. PAT: And I told Destiny I was thinking about this and asked her about it. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. JAD: I find myself thinking like, Okay, I know these kids have their genes half from me, half from my wife. Maybe more. We neuter them.". SAM KEAN: Yeah, it was a very attractive theory to them in Moscow. She and I snuck away from the children into her office. The lady knew why we were there. Here's what Olov says he found in the data. ], You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. [chuckles]. Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So, we have our rats in the lab and JAD: They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". Kinda makes me claustrophobic. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. Were there any consequences? Plus, you know, Lamarck didn't get all the biological details right. ROBERT: Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. SAM KEAN: And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. JAD: I tell you what I'm going to do though. Just sing. JAD: So, in the end, where do you come down on this? He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. Okay, all right, this is interesting. I have to be creative.". JAD: Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? According to Darwin, life and changes are ruled by chance. Did that scare you at all? You're slippery, partner's slippery. PEJK MALINOVSKI: Okay, I'm here. JAD: Theyd basically starve. DESTINY HARRIS: Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. JAD: In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. SAM KEAN: I should add too. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." SAM KEAN: And his lab ended up getting destroyed. JAD: One parent stretching isnt going to do anything, see thats the bummer of Darwinian evolution. JAD: Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong. JAD: So then over the next 70 some odd years, Lamarck basically became the poster boy for, like, the big dumb idea, the idea that you want to believe in but that you know isn't true. I said, "This will be the last one. This is what's called the slow growth period. Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? MICHAEL MEANEY: Known as transcription factors. But what exactly. CARL ZIMMER: And he makes a very careful study of this hand. I mean, yes, I might get a great family, but I might not. Completely answer all questions in Section I AND Section IV. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. Thank you so much for your interest in Radiolab. He was mighty skeptical. DESTINY HARRIS: I do mean that. It takes a while. The event that really sets this story in motion, the set of events, happened a few months after Barbara had brought Destiny home. JAD: [laughs] Youre just just judo, that's all this is. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. That doesn't matter. Radiolab: Inheritance - Mastering Rhetoric Radiolab: Inheritance Posted on February 26, 2013 by wlin4 So I listened to Radiolab's story on "Inheritance" which talks about genetics. You know, they say it only takes one time. ROBERT: If you were a great rat mommy, what would you be doing with your rat baby? But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. Push yourself and you got it.". ROBERT: I wonder. [chuckles]. And so, they just had to hold on for the entire winter. SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. ROBERT: Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its DESTINY HARRIS: Hi, this is Destiny Harris. Are you nine? Professional authors can write an essay in 3 hours, if there is a certain volume, but it must be borne in mind that with such a service the price will be the highest. But according to Kammerer, shortly after these toads got into the water, they did begin to evolve fast. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. In any case, what they saw at the end of all this counting wasWell, first of all, what they saw was this pattern that rat pups who got licked a lot as babies, when they grew up, they licked their babies a lot and the rat pups who didn't get licked a lot, when they grew up, they didn't lick their babies. It's against the rules. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. SAM KEAN: I guess the way I would look at it is that you can change your environment a lot more easily than you can change your genes. It would be wrong to think that they represent all women who use drugs while they're pregnant. Theyd basically starve. So here's what you're going to notice. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. And she says, one day, this idea just came to her. It's just a mind crushing tedium. JAD: Turning down a job that they'd offered him. BARBARA HARRIS: I already knew that if I ever got a little girl, I was going to name her Destiny. So this whole debate, two totally different ways of seeing life. And when she had a baby. Because while you might have a lot of influence, you know, genetically speaking, over your kids and their kids, you don't seem to have a lot of control. I had a little basketball for her. OLOV BYGREN: Yes, we are really data-rich. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? BARBARA HARRIS: This is 750 and this is 200. MICHAEL MEANEY: So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. ROBERT: Remind me this. Its a terrible thought! like they could be whistling six tables over in a restaurant and he would turn around and be like, "Stop that," it was like it was scraping his very nerves. You have to look at one cage, say, are they licking? About 30 years ago-. 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